It's probably our biggest concern on offense, outside of the HC/QB chemistry. For the Bengals, it's theirs too, although we'd all agree they have a bigger list of concerns after the O line than we do.
LT
Bengals - Jonah Williams - 11th overall, hasn't taken a live snap since 2018 d/t injury
Browns - Jed Wills - 10th overall, but is in a normal football trajectory
RT
Bengals - Bobby Hart - "a guy at best" per Locked on Bengals
Browns - Jack Conklin - probowler starting his 2nd contract
It's pretty fair to call LT a draw, even though our guy is fresher. RT, we win. Heck, Kendall Lamm's grade was much better than Hart's, and Hubbard was about the same (50's). At least Hubbard has played every O-line position.
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LG
Bengals - Michael Jordan - 4th rounder from last year, middle of the roader
Browns - Joel Bitonio - probowler in the prime of his career
RG
Bengals - Xavier Su'a-Filo - nearly 30 yr-old who couldn't start in Dallas last year
Browns - Wyatt Teller - a Dorsey fave, who improved as he settled in last season
They may have the two worst guards in the NFL, both with Cam Erving-like PFF grades (low 40's), and #3 in line is Billy Price, who lost his job last year. Yet for us, Bitonio is top-10 and Teller is a middle-third-er in the rankings. Teller's grade is a dozen points higher than their best G in Jordan, and his pass-blocking is very good. If it weren't for being part of 8th and goal debacle in his first game, his run grade would have been much better.
A little more on Teller, he also played (and graded) way better than players like Forest Lamp and, cough/cough, Austin Corbett.
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C
Bengals - Trey Hopkins - 25th ranked center and a horrible run blocker
Browns - JC Tretter - an overall top-10 center, and a top-3 pass blocking center
Pffft. Browns win.
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So overall all, we have a draw at LT, and the Browns are better at every other position, with better depth.
Here's the Bengals beat writers' concern. Everyone on their line has to take a step forward for this to work. It's pretty common for an O-line to have a player or two who needs to elevate and solidify, but they feel it's going to take incredible luck for their entire O-line to both elevate AND stay healthy. The writer I read said he's fine with hoping their 2019 first rounder works out, but to then look down the line, & need the same for every other position, well, it's tough to be optimistic.
Yes, it's the slow-season like we've never seen, so I thought I'd compare a little. Might add on the Ravens and Steelers to this thread for more O-line vs O-line thoughts.
(yeah, I posted it over at BH too, but it's pretty quiet over there)
Personally, I think it is fair to say our OL could reasonably be in contention for the best in the division and amongst the best in the league. A comparison with the Bengals OL is, frankly, unfair to them. They're not in the same realm.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, the only unproven talent we have is arguably the best tackle in the 2020 draft and Teller, who performed admirably in 2019. Bitonio, Tretter and Conklin are all Pro-Bowl-esque players. Not only can we not say the same about anyone on the Cincinnati OL, but I wouldn't say any of them are clear long-term starters for that organisation.
Also consider we've got two very sturdy blocking backs in Chubb and Hubbard, and a pretty decent blocking tight end in Hooper. I don't hate Njoku as a blocker but he is certainly inconsistent, and Harrison held his own in college, so it remains to be seen what happens there.
The Ravens still retain the crown as the best OL in the division. Losing Marshall Yanda is a huge blow for them, and Matt Skura is coming off a brutal injury (tore his ACL, MCL and PCL) with only a one year tender signed. They did double dip at guard in the 3rd (Tyree Phillips, Miss State, could project as a tackle) and 4th (Ben Bredeson, Michigan) rounds but it is unlikely either start. Bradley Bozeman (LG) and Ben Powers should lock down the guard spots, but Powers is largely untested. The tackle spots, with Stanley and Zeuz, are locked down tight.
Steelers OL is a bit of a mystery, to me. They are middle of the pack, in my eyes, but can be good on a week to week basis. Villanueva, Wisniewski, Pouncey and Decastro will all be in their 30s by the time the season begins - so plenty of veteran talent. Actually, Feiler will be the youngest on the line at 28 years old. They are the poster boys of good, solid OL play. The real question is how a not-great-shape, banged up 38-year-old quarterback who is a year removed from football performs. I feel they are good enough to protect him but not good enough to protect him from himself if the game has passed him by a little. Given his age and history of being banged up, I just don't see how he returns to form without skipping a beat. However, I'm not too worried about their OL anyway because Myles Garrett is going to want to utterly destroy them - and I guarantee you everyone on our D won't want to be the guy who doesn't match his energy.
Overall, I feel we compare well with the AFC North in general. We undoubtedly have talented players, who should be a good fit with the system, and they should also get plenty of help from the skill positions making life a little easier. I don't enjoy pounding this drum but I will again say my lingering concern is merely time; can our guys pick up the new blocking system quickly enough during such a rough offseason.
Agree. On paper, if you're buying into Teller and I am, you see the potential to have one of the best few OLs in the NFL... and nobody's old.
Steelers are valiantly trying to not fall into a rebuild but it feels inevitable.
Agree it's unfair to compare theirs to ours, other than QB concerns/needs, but both teams needed to address it to have a real shot at improving.
We did, they didn't, in my book, and lucky for us, we had better pieces in place already (IOL).
Light stuff of sure on my part.
Not at all light stuff on your part. It was a great post and the OL is important for us to discuss because 1) It was, in my opinion, our weakest group on the whole team last year, and 2) What could now be considered a strength which hopefully can gel enough to help boost our playoff prospects.
I hope when I said it wasn't fair to compare our OLs, it didn't come across as criticism for you for doing so. My apologies if it did. Just simply that we aggressively addressed our OL woes with arguably the best two players and a good blocking TE who has played in Shanny's similar system, while, as you mention, they didn't do much. They didn't draft an OL until the sixth round and only added Sua'-Filo on a low value deal.
I do like what they did with their secondary. Signing Bell, Waynes and Mac Alexander were good moves. They also arguably have the best receivers in the AFC North with A.J Green, Tee Higgins, John Ross and Tyler Boyd. But who is blocking for Joe Burrow? I'd be nervous about that if I was a Bengals fan.
They should absolutely be nervous about protecting Burrow. Their line is garbage, at least on paper, and he's a rookie who didn't exactly just flick a switch on the college level, he built to last season.
I love the guy, seriously loved watching him last season, but I think this one's gonna be rough for him and the Bengals. And I think the Steelers might fall of a cliff in an ugly way.
Again, for me, I put the Browns behind only the Chiefs and Ravens in the AFC and both are definitely subject to change.
Hey Chill - where did all these smart guys come from?
Well done boys, keep up the good work!
It's amazing the kind of repartee that can be shared when you don't have to be concerned about a blindside attack...speaking of which...I think it will be amazing to see the kind of QB Baker will be when he too is not concerned about a blindside hit.
BTW, I am not sold on the Ravens OL for the exact reasons you stated. They lost 1 premier player, another is coming off a major injury, and a third is untested...and all 3 are up the middle...the key to the running game. Teams are going to be able to rush that middle and collapse both the pocket and the running lanes...just one more reason I think LJ is in for a crash back to earth this year.
okay, I"m going to blow out the AFCN
LT
Bengals - Jonah Williams - 11th overall, hasn't taken a live snap since 2018 d/t injury
Browns - Jed Wills - 10th overall, but is in a normal football trajectory
Steelers - Alejandro Villanueva - 32 yrs-old, PFF's 24th ranked tackle
Ravens - Ronnie Stanley - stud, PFF's #4 OT last year
Winner Ravens
RT
Bengals - Bobby Hart - "a guy at best" per Locked on Bengals
Browns - Jack Conklin - probowler starting his 2nd contract
Steelers - Banner vs Okarafor to compete for the spot
Ravens - Orlando Brown Jr - PFF's 31st ranked tackle
Winner Browns
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LG
Bengals - Michael Jordan - 4th rounder from last year, middle of the roader
Browns - Joel Bitonio - probowler in the prime of his career
Steelers - Matt Feller - moving from T to G
Ravens - Skura, who is rehabbing, so may be need 2nd string help early on
Winner Browns
RG
Bengals - Xavier Su'a-Filo - nearly 30 yr-old who couldn't start in Dallas last year
Browns - Wyatt Teller - a Dorsey fave, who improved as he settled in last season
Steelers - David DeCastro - stud, probowler
Ravens - Bozeman vs roster competitors
Winner Steelers
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C
Bengals - Trey Hopkins - 25th ranked center and a horrible run blocker
Browns - JC Tretter - an overall top-10 center, and a top-3 pass blocking center
Steelers - Pouncey - took a step back last year, (PFF 51.5, 40th) 11 season vet
Ravens - Bozeman vs Mekari- IOL is unsettled
Winner - Browns
So, imho, we win at RT, C, and LG vs the division, with a blue-chip rookie at LT, and a RG who compares very well, sans DeCastro.
I'm quietly hopeful our OL is going to hold out as a bright spot. As I've said, it is always complicated when installing a new offense, but we certainly have a lot going our way.
Talent: Our OL boasts two Pro-Bowlers and JC Tretter is a Pro-Bowl calibre player. Wills is a top 10 selection, and was widely regarded as the top talent at the OT position. I had Thomas ahead of him, but Wills sure isn't a consolation prize. He is as talented as they come and nobody would have been shocked if he was the first OT off the board. Teller is the outlier, not a high selection or a highly acclaimed player, but Dorsey believed in him and he performed well last year. He certainly wasn't THE problem.
Experience: Bitonio, Conklin and Tretter are all veterans who have experience playing in zone blocking schemes. On top of that, all played well in their respective systems. While that isn't the same as having played for Stefanski, it does greatly assist with the learning curve. As Wills has said, and some film rats have shown, Alabama did run some zone blocking concepts. Wills, as he does, performed well. His transition is undoubtedly a big one, but it is something. And, as far as experience goes, Wills is widely considered to be a highly intellectual player who watches a lot of film and does his homework. He isn't a typical rookie, and his cerebral approach to the game will help. Teller, having played last year, has some familiarity of function with this line, and will be flanked by two veteran, high-quality players.
Skill positions: Nick Chubb has no shortage of moments in which he took mistakes and made them irrelevant. Mayfield, I feel, is going to return to form in a big way. We've got a good fullback, excellent receivers and the deepest TE position in the league. This should help hide some of the blemishes which will undoubtedly arise. Having guys who can make plays places us in "do your job" territory far more than "Make them look good" territory. That should provide a boost.
The quality of opposition is a concern. TJ Watt and Bud Dupree had 14.5 and 11.5 sacks last year, placing both in the top 10 in the league. Cam Heyward was also in to the top 30 in sacks. Pittsburgh have a pretty imposing front. Cinci also had two pass rushers finish in the top 30 in sacks, and Baltimore had Judon smash out 9.5. They also added Calais Campbell (Admittedly, his sacks have fallen for three straight years and he's about to turn 34) and the combination of Patrick Queen and Malik Harrison, which brings plenty of speed in front of a very scary secondary.
The quality of opposition is pretty high, and learning the new system is always a pain, but there is plenty which should have a positive impact on improvement. Perhaps most importantly, we simply should be better than last season. We don't need the most of what is poised to be a great OL if we can just get solid, consistent play. That alone would be a tremendous upgrade on 2019.
I am worried about the new at LT thing. The article gives an “expect a typical rookie year“ opinion. Prob right.
As I said over and over, there were no Joe Thomas's at LT in last year's draft...that included Wills. He's a rookie and he is changing sides - there will be growing pains. The good news is that he doesn't have to be Joe Thomas. He just has to be better than crap we had at LT last season.
On paper, as you and many have argued we appear to be in good shape. Compare to the woeful Bengals and I am glad to see we are in an apparent strong position and trending the opposite direction as our state rival.
We're down 3 back-ups, Tretter says in response "we'll be fine". We still have our top 8 in the starters, plus Harris, Hubbard, and Lamm, and those 3 back-ups are a pretty positionally flexible group.
The current O-line room is (I know you all know, but just tapping out a fresh look) :
Starters:
LT: Wills
LG: Bitonio
C: Tretter
RG: Teller
RT: Conklin
Depth:
T's: Lamm, Hubbard, Taylor
G's: Harris, Hubbard, Brown, Pridgeon
C's: Harris, Hubbard
Unless we bring someone in, with the expanded PS, it'll go:
Active Roster: Jed, Joel, JC, Jack and Wyatt, as well as Lamm, Harris, and Hubbard
PS: Taylor, Brown or Pridgeon
Anyone else see Jed in the drills? That dude is smooth. Just flows. He and Harris are athletic AF.
And so much for the (mild) Lamm and Hubbard trade spit-balling.
#Browns Malcolm Pridgeon opts out, marking the third Cleveland guard to take that route. profootballaction.com/2020/07/27/cov…
Updated:
Starters:
LT: Wills
LG: Bitonio
C: Tretter
RG: Teller
RT: Conklin
Depth:
T's: Lamm, Hubbard, Taylor
G's: Harris, Hubbard, Brown
C's: Harris, Hubbard